Nintendo Power interviews Miyamoto, Tezuka, Koizumi
August 9, 2002
Transcript from Miyamoto
Shrine
Firstly, Mr. Tezuka spoke about his involvement with Super Mario Sunshine:
TT: I was the producer of Super Mario Sunshine and worked closely with
Mr. Miyamoto. I worked on all the past Mario series and I tried to advise the
younger members of our staff based on these experiences.
Next, Mr. Koizumi talked about his involvement:
YK: I'm Koizumi. Since this was the first time I'd taken the director's
role in any game, I was kind of tense throughout the development process. Even
now, I still feel a bit nervous. I'm thankful for the help I've received from
so many people at Nintendo who helped complete the game. I'm very glad that we
have created a game that I, myself, really want to play.
SM: Thank you for coming. Mr. Tezuka, as you know, has been working with
me since we created the very first Super Mario Brothers game. Mr. Koizumi worked
on Super Mario 64, too, and he played a major role, especially on the character
of Mario. I also worked with him on The Legend of Zelda. These guys are two important
assets for Nintendo. Of course, none of us can make games alone. We make it a
point to be involved with many projects. When people seek my assistance, I offer
it gladly.
Whenever we are working on so-called series games, I really feel it's necessary
to make the interval between a game and its sequel as short as possible, and we
have to do something to improve the situation for our fans. Accordingly, people
who used to work together on the Mario series have been split into several teams
in order to introduce Mario series games with less lag time between them. We are
taking a similar approach to the Zelda series. However, all the games shall be
developed so that they retain the high quality that people have come to expect
from Nintendo. Although we call some people who are involved with game development
"producer" and others "director," each person does more than
what you might expect from them, given their job title. We want you to feel like
the games themselves are more important than who produced or directed them. Having
said that, however, if we become too secretive about who works on games, it's
not very interesting for you to report. That's why we're holding this event where
we'll accept interview questions.
I know you've already played Super Mario Sunshine. Is there any person who has
not obtained 30 Shines yet? Oh, I'm afraid there is one. Let's ignore him. [Laughter.]
Whenever we create a new Mario game, even though it's a sequel in a series, we
always try to offer some new challenge. Especially when a young director is in
charge of a game, we expect something really unique. We want to incorporate everything
that the existing technology makes possible. We want to be able to say, "We
have used the full functionality of the hardware so we can not do better on the
current console." When a new game was to be developed for Nintendo GameCube,
we approached the project with very high aspirations. About a year ago, when we
showed the first video of Mario Sunshine, even though we offered a glimpse of
something really unique, we did not show Mario using the water sprayer. We didn't
want that idea to be stolen at such an early stage. As a result, I'm afraid that
you might not have found the video footage very exciting when you saw it. Around
that time, the basic game system was complete and new characters were moving around
in it. Over the past year, we've changed the direction of the game so that Super
Mario Sunshine is more like Super Mario 64 -- a kind of conservative move.
How do I want gamers to play Super Mario Sunshine? In each Mario game, players
sometimes move around without any specific purpose, yet they may find some secret
as a result. While wandering around, players get accustomed to the gameplay so
that Mario moves just as they want him to. Then gamers feel some attachment to
the game and don't want to sell it to used-software shops. So, the more you play,
the more attachment you feel. This is an important element we want you to advertise.
Whenever we make a Mario game, or whenever we make any game, we want to make it
so that any person can play it, regardless of his or her age.
Technology is advancing and we have to show that we can take advantage of innovations
to demonstrate our superiority over our competitors. For example, if we choose
not to include a movie sequence in a game, our competitors may claim that our
system cannot support this kind of feature. That sort of thing could happen. [Laughter.]
And perhaps no one would play Super Mario Sunshine. That would be a shame. I want
people who have not played any video games for the past 10 years to try Super
Mario Sunshine -- their first gaming experience in 10 years. The video game industry
has changed a lot, and people who try a video game for the first time in 10 years
won't have a clue about what's happened in the interim.
This is the current situation with many popular game series -- the original games
were released more than 10 years ago. Super Mario Sunshine is in this category.
People who have been away from gaming may have trouble understanding Super Mario
Sunshine the first day they play it; however, on the second day, they will start
to understand its charm. Even though you might feel like stopping on day one,
please don't. If you play Super Mario Sunshine for three days, you'll make the
reentry into video game culture. [Laughter.] I am not saying that it's an easy
game, but that most people will understand its charm instantaneously. It's not
an easy task to make a game that seems straightforward to casual players and,
at the same time, can be appreciated by devoted Mario fans, the kind of people
who might ask, "How many Stars do I need to collect to complete a very specific
task?" I believe that Super Mario Sunshine will appeal to both sorts of players,
to some extent.
TT: The basic game is similar to the N64 version [Super Mario 64]. We have
intentionally made it seem familiar and simple to play. Those who have played
Super Mario 64 can recall the experience and find new joy with Super Mario Sunshine.
Personally, I am not an expert at making beautiful graphics. Koizumi is the expert
in that field. He has come up with many excellent ideas, including the movie sequences,
that fit with the world of Super Mario Sunshine perfectly. Rather than dwelling
on the game's merely attractive points, I know that the players will feel joy
in their bones as soon as they start playing it. The world of Mario is a kind
of miniature garden in which players can move around as they like -- that is certainly
the case with Super Mario Sunshine. I hope everyone will enjoy it.
At first, Koizumi created Isle Delfino with clay, in the shape of dolphin. Young
men, I mean at least younger than me, come up with interesting and creative ideas.
The making of Super Mario Sunshine involved many new and innovative contributions
by younger creators.
YK: Mr. Tezuka spoke about graphics, but what are important in games are
their feel and touch. What I really wanted to reproduce with this new game were
the feelings we had in our childhoods when we were playing. The water pistol idea
came from this effort. I wanted players to feel the coldness of water. I wanted
players to engage in mischief, such as watering other characters or playing with
mud. I wanted to simulate child's play. That was the first priority. Graphics
helped me integrate such concepts into the new Mario game. I have to wait for
your judgment about whether or not I was successful in that attempt. You may say
that this new Mario is a kind of cinematic experience. We have prepared players
for the ending. You may cry about that, but please enjoy it.
SM: I'd like to add one more thing. Not everyone has used the Nintendo
GameCube Controller. So, those who play Nintendo GameCube for the first time may
feel a bit uneasy initially. Of course, we, the developers, have been playing
exclusively with the GCN Controller so we can't play with any other controller.
I had some confidence with the N64 controller, too. However, when I compare the
two, I can tell that the GCN Controller is better designed for game play. What
I really want to say is, "Get accustomed to the GCN Controller because, 10
years from now, this controller will be the standard."
Q: In developing Super Mario Sunshine, what kind of experiment did you
start with?
YK: When I submitted the basic proposal for the game to Mr. Miyamoto, I
had already come up with the water-pistol idea. I tried to explain how the analog
stick could make players feel the touch of a water pistol. Letting Mario have
a water pistol alone wouldn't make the game fun. I started thinking about the
best way to feature the water pistol, how Mario should move and show the water
pistol. I liked the basic play control style of Super Mario 64 and thought that
it should be applied to the new game. I tried to imagine what Mario would be like
on the Nintendo GameCube, and, from the very beginning, I let him have a water
pistol. This is where I started. Then, I built upon that to imagine why Mario
might have a water pistol; what kind of actions he would have. Then we came up
with the graffiti-like elements.
SM: Talking about experiments, we experimented with watering and graffiti
drawing and erasing, among other things. In video games, it is not a simple task
to draw graffiti and have it remain there. When you remove a treasure from a treasure
box, you shouldn't find the stuff in the box afterward. It's not as easy as it
seems. Painting and maintaining a screen-full of graffiti is very difficult in
a video game. It can be accomplished only with the GCN. Some PCs can do it, but
not at such a fast speed. That is an example of one of our basic experiments.
To tell you the truth, Super Mario Sunshine was developed on Nintendo's new R&D
system, which integrates a 3D engine with other engines. This is a new system.
When you use it, the time required for game projects is significantly reduced.
So, Super Mario Sunshine was the very first game to be developed on this basic
system. The second game is The Legend of Zelda. When we were creating the development
system, we were unable to concentrate upon Super Mario Sunshine. If we add the
development period for this engine to the overall development time, the development
of Super Mario Sunshine took a relatively long time. However, after we started
actually making the game, it took about one and a half years to complete Super
Mario Sunshine. It wasn't very long. I think we have created a fairly good development
system.
I often say that Nintendo GameCube is an easy machine to make games for. Some
people may realize that Super Mario Sunshine does not work on 60 frame per second.
What you are seeing on-screen is 30 frames. However, the game is made so that
you will feel it is more than a 30-frame game. We have worked on various technologies.
There are many characters in the game: Mario, Peach and many others. We will make
use of the same character models in future games, such as Mario Party. Before,
we had to create each character for each game. Standard character models are being
created by one team at Nintendo, which will be shared by other game creation groups.
Of course, we cannot work that systematically 100% of the time. However, when
we make a completely new Mario game, the game development time will be significantly
reduced. This is one way to shorten the development time by improving the R&D
circumstances. The artists working on Super Mario Sunshine did not create many
of the traditional Nintendo characters, which were created by another team. They
concentrated upon making the enemy characters.
Q: Is Isle Delfino a part of Mushroom Kingdom? It looks like Princess Peach
could not exert her royal influence in the island.
YK: They are on vacation and visiting a foreign island, just like Japanese
tourists traveling to Hawaii for pleasure. The faces and appearance of the island
residents are completely different from those of the characters living in the
familiar world of the Mario series.
Q: You said that the basic system is the same as that of the N64 version.
This time, the camera angle is controlled by the player. In the older, N64 version,
the camera angle changed almost automatically. Why did you opt to change this?
SM: That question isn't very easy to answer. Some say that Mario games
should be very easy to play, so the camera angle should be fully automatic. We
have tried many different camera systems, including semi-automatic ones, but they
did not appeal to everyone. Some liked it and some didn't. Now, as far as the
camera system is concerned, we tend to leave greater autonomy to players, but
not to the extent that it may prevent smooth game play.
YK: You do not have to change the camera angle all the time in Super Mario
Sunshine, but, at some points, you can see cool graphics by changing the angle
yourself. I hope people will get accustomed to it.
SM: In many games, we are now incorporating the notion that, if you press
L, the camera will show the view at 180º. As long as that kind of system is in
place, it may be better to leave the camera angle to the discretion of players.
If we like, we can incorporate both the automatic and manual modes so that players
can chose whichever one they like. Our game system has already become that sophisticated.
YK: Right, but I tried both and found the free-camera-angle style easier
to play.
Q: How did you evolve from the original water pistol idea to cleaning up
graffiti all around?
YK: When I was wondering what we could do with the Nintendo GameCube Controller,
the water pistol idea came to my mind first. I am right-handed. When I was pushing
the button, the stiffness reminded me of the trigger of the water pistol that
I used to play with. I thought, what would Mario look like if he sprayed water
around with it? So that's where it comes from.
Then I asked myself what Mario should aim at with the water pistol. Opponents?
A wall? Around that time, we decided to include the Wall Jump move, so we wanted
to create a number of tall buildings that Mario could jump around. So, why would
Mario have to move around a town with many walls? Maybe he had to clean up the
town with the water pistol. I thought of the idea of painting all over the town
with mud. The idea of leaving Mario's footprint on the dirt followed this original
idea. In the end, I thought we could reproduce the feeling of childhood play.
Q: You say that the game may be difficult for casual gamers or those returning
to gaming after some time. Why did you make such a game balance?
SM: I must say that all the 3D action games are hard for returning players.
Still, I believe Nintendo had to make a game that could be appreciated by players
with various levels of interest in gaming, and I thought Mario might have that
kind of mission, to some extent. What I was trying to say is that Super Mario
Sunshine may not fully appeal to causal players. That's all. The game is very
well-balanced, so don't worry.
Q: If 3D games are not for returning players, why did you start working
on the same game system that was used with Super Mario 64?
SM: We are working on many different projects. We have shown the idea for
Mario 128 before, which is headed in a different direction. But Super Mario Sunshine
took this direction -- it is an authentic sequel to Super Mario 64. I regret this
somewhat -- not because of the quality of Super Mario Sunshine, but rather because
this Mario game may not attract players who are returning to gaming after some
time.
Q: Why did you place a "Mario Action Stage" in each area? I mean,
like the ones found in Super Mario 64? Did you want players to associate the game
with Super Mario 64?
SM: That is the basis of the Mario series. Though the freedom of action
seems to be the essence of Mario games nowadays, simple mission are very important
for Mario games. One thing we may need to reflect upon is that players have to
clear all of the stages in order to get to the final one. We should have designed
the game differently, but we couldn't.
YK: The water pistol makes the game relatively easier. We had to limit
the areas where Mario could visit by hovering, for example, to make the game play
more tense. Making the stages you mentioned compulsory helped balance the difficulty
level in the game.
Q: In Super Mario 64, we could play with Mario's face in the beginning.
Why didn't you do anything like that this time?
YK: We want the game to be judged by its overall elements. Speaking of
facial expression, seeing how peoples' faces change when you water them is lots
of fun.
SM: Game creators, in general, are putting so many minigames in games today.
I am concerned that they're spending too much energy on these extra-features and
not enough on the larger game.
Q: What happens when you have obtained all the Shines?
YK: Something happens. Please look for it yourself.
Q: Did you actually visit a tropical island in order to make the game?
YK: It was great. [Laughter.] No, never. I'm joking. On the other hand,
some of the staff members took days off, spent their own money and visited several
different places. They recorded the scenarios in their minds and came up with
the background.
Q: Yoshi seems weaker than when he used to appear in other games -- he
now disappears in water. Is Isle Delfino Yoshi different?
YK: Can I tell? No, it's a kind of secret.
SM: Speaking of Yoshi disappearing into water, isn't the water beautiful?
It ripples and, when you enter water with mud on Mario, oil will float to the
surface. Even Mario's outline may distort. Our creators wanted to use these effects.
Apart from its visual effects, in terms of its 3D game play, I believe Super Mario
Sunshine represents a kind of breakthrough. Making precise movements, such as
jumping, are not easy in 3D games. I will be 50 this year and I am an ultra-good
player for my age. Still, it is not easy for me to manipulate characters in 3D
games. Hovering contributes to the smooth play. It is like a jump game in zero-gravity
space. It is very comfortable. Of course, it could make the game too easy to play.
That's why, at some points in the game, you can't hover. Even though 3D games
may be difficult for casual players, Super Mario Sunshine is different.
Q: You said that you got some inspiration for Pikmin from gardening. Now
you say you started with the water pistol idea for Super Mario Sunshine. Is that
actually the case? Or did you first come up with the tropical island scenery and
then come up with the water pistol idea?
YK: It was the water pistol that came to my mind first. The water pistol
game play reminded me of summer and then I came to think about a tropical island.
Isn't it great to play with water on a hot island?
SM: Nintendo GameCube can reproduce water beautifully. We thought it'd
be a shame not to show the beauty of it, so we wanted to use water in many different
ways. From the beginning of the project, we wanted to sell the new Mario game
during the first summer after Nintendo GameCube's debut, so featuring water sounded
like a great idea.
Q: How did you come to the idea of a water tank after starting from a water
pistol?
YK: Well, I thought it was like a child's dream come true -- flying in
the air by using the equipment on your back.
TT: Although we call it a water pistol, we tried to design it so that no
associations could ever be made between it and actual weapons. So we were trying
to design the weirdest and funniest gadget, which turned out to be a water tank
you wear on your back.
Q: Today is the launch date for Super Mario Sunshine [in Japan]. Were you
trying to offer some message with Mario's new mature look?
SM: I will be 50 this year. This is becoming my life's work. I hope to
make more and more Mario games that can be played by anyone. You said Mario became
mature. We enjoy ourselves by fiddling with his face and clothes. To catch up
with the trend in fashion, you must play a new Mario game every year. [Laughter.]
TT: When Koizumi submitted the original idea, he asked if we could change
Mario's clothing. At first, I took a rather conservative attitude and said, "He
is not Mario without these clothes." But I also said, "You may let him
wear short-sleeved shirts, though." Some people want Mario to wear different
clothes. I sometime feel like this, too. I think we should present many different
Marios from now on.
YK: Now that two original creators of Mario are present, I don't have much
to say. But sometime before, I recall Mr. Miyamoto asking me, "How about
making Mario wilder?" He ended up using the toy-like gadget of the water
pistol. But Mario's actions are rather wild, I think. I don't know what the next
adventure for Mario will be. Maybe he will be engaged in many different jobs.
But I, myself, am now a bit tired. I have put all my energy into Super Mario Sunshine.
All I need is a little rest. The idea of letting Mario use some tool initially
faced opposition. Now that he is using a water pistol, he may also use other tools.
In that sense, Super Mario Sunshine may have paved a new way for Mario's future
adventures.
SM: We have had rather serious discussions over the question, "Can
Mario use tools?" It may be Okay for Luigi. [Laughter.] The water pistol
was created by the same designer who armed Luigi. If that's the case, Mario can
use one, too. [Laughter.] We have had serious discussions about clothing, as well.
For example, people may not see him as Mario if he wears a running shirt. Last
year, there were sightseers in the game, but I felt it was too strange for Mario
to encounters ordinary human beings -- rather than the ones living in his world.
Each member has his or her own opinion about what Mario and Mario games should
be like.